Curse

SleepyLuxon · Oct 13, 2007, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Cracked armor is just plain wrong i wish we would have gotten -20 armor while attacking instead. Cracked Armor Covers conditions for your enemy and h/h are stupid and keep removing it from you so its gonna get hard h/h with AR

ShadowbaneX · Oct 13, 2007, 11:36 PM // 23:36

the main problem with this isn't the armour loss, it's the condition. Most people playing with H/H and bring condition removal and there in lies the problem. Draining your monks to remove a largely useless condition is very painful. The AL penalty could have been even greater and it wouldn't have mattered that much, it's the incessant drain your AI monks energy supplies that is the problem.

Iuris · Oct 13, 2007, 11:51 PM // 23:51

I would point out that the solution applied to Aggressive refrain is not just a matter of "-20 armor to 80+10+16".

Applying cracked armor also means that the paragon is now subject to a condition. Virulence, Iron palm, Victory is mine, Discord, Vile miasma, FRAGILITY, Epidemic. Just imagine Fragility on a paragon with aggressive refrain.

And the AI monk annoyance, along with the cracked armor becoming a "covering condition" is not a minor issue. If a paragon is blinded, you can't in a convenient way remove the blind - being constantly reapplied, the cracked armor will be removed first, and will usually be reapplied by the time the condition remover recharges.

Karmaniac · Oct 14, 2007, 07:49 AM // 07:49

PvP-wise its borderline fine but with H/H it just plain sucks. I'd gladly go Godwin on this but after so much fear and loathing I just can't be bothered anymore. Was quitting GW anyways. Don't expect me to buy anything made by Anet in the near future. At least if izzy is involved...

semantic · Oct 14, 2007, 09:56 AM // 09:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

If you're really desperate, guildmate tested that placing a Purifying Veil on yourself will keep you clean from the Cracked Armor. Your call if the skill slot, and speccing motivation, is worth the 20 armor.

I think you meant [skill]Purifying Finale[/skill], and yes, that's a great way to deal with the Cracked Armor since it seems to get removed before it even gets applied. Morgahn is really good about throwing PF around, and it's not as if it's a bad skill to begin with.

Picuso · Oct 14, 2007, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Yes, with Purifying Finale casted after AR, AR applies Cracked but PF removes it, so you can be as happy as before

Ben-A-BoO · Oct 14, 2007, 05:37 PM // 17:37

I really can live with the - 20 AL but the problem, like stated above, is cracked armor as condition burying other conditions beyond strategic control.

Purifying Finale can help me work around it ... thanks for the hint.
But still i have to spec in Motivation for it and give up a skill slot.

Don't get me wrong ... a nerf is necessary on AR in pvp but this smells like exhaustion on the Ritualists back then - sigh -

Talking about energy here: GftE and Watch Yourself recharge worries me much more! You waste a lot of adrenaline in those 4 secs ... this wouldn't be much of a problem if I had more skills that require adrenaline. The problem is that the paragon has e-cost heavy utility and we need to manage our energy somehow ... channeling anyone LOL

Cheers,
Timebandit

yesitsrob · Oct 14, 2007, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Yeah pretty much Paragons are still imba. Have to be pretty bad to think otherwise, ups.

Tarzanboy · Oct 14, 2007, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Aggressive Refrain was long overdue for a nerf. Yeah it has a high cost and initial cast time sucks, but you can keep it up indefinitely barring the use of Well of Silence or Vocal Minority. Imagine this: permanent 25% IAS, no means to remove it and no upkeep cost if using 5e skills with a Leadership of 10 or if used with other chanters/shouters in the party. In a party with any shouters, virtually any class could go /P and take advantage of the +25%, whether it was a Ranger, Derv, Warrior or Assassin.

Seriously, other classes were hit much harder with the nerfbat than Paragons and this wasn't even the hardest hit for Para's. "Go For the Eyes!" or "Watch Yourself!" (for the P/W's out there) getting a 4 second refresh hurts more than the condition and -20 AL and yet paras can still work around it. If you were spamming GftE or WY! for energy management, "Save Yourselves!" is still there and unaffected.

How would you like to be a rit and find that your spirits are now 50hp lighter?
How about as a Monk and find that the recharges on Shield of Deflection and Shield of Regeneration were raised?

Cheers,
TB

wilebill · Oct 14, 2007, 10:54 PM // 22:54

AR nerf doesn't affect me. GfTE I can live without; no use carrying GfTE now.

No use carrying Watch Yourself either, more effective things to put in a slot.

Problem is here, ANet has yet again nerfed the Paragon without buffing any Paragon skills. If you are a good game designer, you just do not take things away from a class without giving something in return.

street peddler · Oct 14, 2007, 11:03 PM // 23:03

this really doesnt make the skill bad, it's still good and overpowered, you just have some kind of downside to it now.

Tarzanboy · Oct 14, 2007, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by street peddler

this really doesnt make the skill bad, it's still good and overpowered, you just have some kind of downside to it now.

I look at it as an opportunity. Yes, it adds a condition and conditions can be bad, especially if you are running H&H, but it opens an opportunity with giving an endless stream of long lasting conditions over to the AI. Prior to the update, it was pretty uncommon to have Cracked Armor on a foe, unless someone in the party used one of the handful of GWEN skills that caused it. Now, skills that were previously ignored such as Chest Thumper for Paras can now be utilized a little more.

When working with a Derv with Aura Slicer, it becomes even more interesting, as suddenly there is another skill that may remove Spell Breaker/Obsidian Flesh/Vow of Silence/Spell Shield yet it doesn't involve removing one of their own enchantments.

I'm thinking we'll start seeing more P/N's now with [skill]Plague Signet[/skill] or [skill]Plague Touch[/skill], potentially even [skill]Contagion[/skill] or [skill]Plague Sending[/skill].

Cheers,
TB

Trx · Oct 15, 2007, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilebill

Problem is here, ANet has yet again nerfed the Paragon without buffing any Paragon skills. If you are a good game designer, you just do not take things away from a class without giving something in return.

Exactly. June 15th Izzy said this: "Paragon Another small list of changes, I felt the Armor change was gonna be huge here and we've been nerfing these guys in all most every update while we did nerf the casting time on Defensive Anthem, we wanted to see how well the armor change works"

4 months later and the nerfs keep on comming, and they boosted what, Awe and Signet of Aggression? Just admit leadership and some skills were flawed by design and redesign them to shut the pvp community up, don't keep sneeking in a nerf or two every skill balance update. I have no reason to quit my paragon since they are still good in PvE and I have put alot of time into him, but I am getting pretty annoyed by this constant stream of nerfs.

And to say something on topic, AR is still fine, been using a 3 paragon setup with 1 using purifying finale and apart from the slightly higher energy drain on the prot monk hench it doesn't play much different then before the nerf.

Dean Harper · Oct 15, 2007, 04:47 AM // 04:47

teh only thing that is gonna hurt paras is the gfte nerf...

Racthoh · Oct 15, 2007, 05:29 AM // 05:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dean Harper

teh only thing that is gonna hurt paras is the gfte nerf...

Really only means paragons have to pay attention to their energy if they previously relied on GftE as their only means of recovery.

hotman · Oct 15, 2007, 06:35 AM // 06:35

Ive always just used soldiers fury, FGJ, enduring harmony, and watch yourself, it seems to be absolutely amazing right now, ppl should give it a shot and tell me what they think

Cebe · Oct 15, 2007, 07:39 AM // 07:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by hotman

Ive always just used soldiers fury, FGJ, enduring harmony, and watch yourself, it seems to be absolutely amazing right now, ppl should give it a shot and tell me what they think

I tried using the exact same thing this weekend, and it was fantastic. Less damage perhaps than Aggressive Refrain builds but still a very nice alternative for me. I like the fact the IAS costs 5 energy as opposed to 25, and keeping a shout on you at all times isn't hard. I was using it with Holy Spear, Merciless Spear, Burning Spear and "Stand Your Ground!". Worked very well imo.

iridescentfyre · Oct 15, 2007, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Really only means paragons have to pay attention to their energy if they previously relied on GftE as their only means of recovery.

Yeah, and its not like 4 seconds is that long of a wait anyway... You can use GFTE! or WY! effectively every 2 seconds still, thats roughly as long as it takes to get the adrenaline anyway.

Abnaxus · Oct 15, 2007, 04:56 PM // 16:56

I created a PvE paragon a month ago (it is at Ruins of Morah mission but recently haven't played much because recently I spent my time to get level 2 VIP for my ranger), so I'm not expert in this class.

Before the update, I use to run AR+GfTE and Cruel Spear as elite, and TnTF.

I'm fine with GfTE change, actually I can use better the adrenaline I gain instead of being temptated to push GfTE at recharge, sometimes when I already was at full energy lol.

But I really hate the cracked armor, it's the most stupid idea ever. Much better a -20AL and not such a condition.

I don't play PvP, so I'd like to know this: are there PvP builds that make effective use of cracked armor and bring skill that cause it?

I've never seen threads about how imba cracked armor is, or request to nerf it. So I imagine that it's not so popular.

Well, if this is true, probably the devs want to make it more popular, and since players don't bring skills that cause cracked armor, the only possibility to see it in game was to give a class the "honor" of being able to self inflict cracked armor

Besides irony, I tried to use this setup:

Soldier Fury
For Great Justice
Energizing Chorus
<spear attack>
Find their weakness
TnTF

15 spear
12 leadership
9 command
3 motivation

Even with very low motivation, EC gives you the same energy gain as GFTE, it's spammable, and allows you to save 4e on the next shout.

The idea is that saving energy is more or less like gaining energy in my opinion.

The 1 sec cast can be a drawback because of interrupts, but in PvE mesmers normally interrupt even 0.1 sec casting skills, and you can spam again after 2 hits.
Find their weakness triggers SF, and ends when you critical, at this point you also inflict deep wound.

In this way you have always a chant or shout on you, and are able to gain and save energy for you shouts, make DPS and inflict deep wound.

Darkpower Alchemist · Oct 19, 2007, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarzanboy

In a party with any shouters, virtually any class could go /P and take advantage of the +25%, whether it was a Ranger, Derv, Warrior or Assassin.

This is actually a very wrong point to make. The cost and the fact that it is in leadership makes AR horrible on anyone not a primary paragon. Even in a group full of shouters/chanters AR was made very specific for the paragon's uses.

[skill=big]Aggressive Refrain[/skill]

Despite the 5s duration at 0 leadership, no warrior,derv, or sin worth his/her salt would use a 2s cast IAS then run into battle, essentially losing the IAS upon reaching melee range. It's not even sensible on a SP assassin because the energy drain would stop the synergy of the build in its tracks. Just a point I felt needed to be made.